Reforms Facing ‘More Difficulties Than Before’ : Plans at Critical Stage, Gorbachev Says

MOSCOW — Soviet leader Mikhail S. Gorbachev, speaking intimately and with conviction about his “grandiose” plan for political and economic reform, acknowledged in an interview that his campaign is entering a critical phase, mired in turbulence and new problems but not without hope.

Gorbachev admitted that his reforms are facing “more difficulties than before.” But during a 90-minute interview with editors of The Washington Post and Newsweek on Wednesday, he appeared unfazed by the lack of substantive progress in the first three years.

Rather, he said, the experience thus far has brought him new confidence because there is now more intense interest by the people in seeing “an end to stagnation, an end to apathy.”

Confident of Success

Gorbachev said the processes of openness and democratization have made him more confident that his policies will succeed where those of Nikita S. Khrushchev, the former Soviet leader ousted from office in the midst of his own reform process, failed.

Asked whether he favors limiting the terms of leading party officials, including that of general secretary--a reform that could transform Soviet political life-- Gorbachev answered, “Yes.” He declined to make further comment, however, indicating that it would be considered at a forthcoming meeting of party leaders.

Gorbachev said he is looking forward to a crucial party conference of Soviet officials, due to open here June 28, to review the program of economic restructuring, or perestroika, and to “deepen” these programs and give a “second wind” to his reforms.

The first of its kind to be called since 1941, the conference will attract 5,000 Communist Party delegates from throughout the Soviet Union and is viewed as the single most important Soviet political event to take place since Gorbachev took office.

A Careful Course

Gorbachev appeared anxious to steer a careful course between radical reformers and party conservatives and to create a positive atmosphere for discussion of his program at the conference, regarded here as the last major hurdle before it has the unqualified approval of party leaders.

“This is a turbulent time,” the 57-year-old Soviet leader said, “a turbulent sea in which it is not easy to sail the ship. But we have a compass and we have a crew to guide that ship. And the ship itself is strong.”

Soviet officials have estimated that at least a third of the Soviet population and bureaucracy opposes or fears reforms and many others are uncertain about them.

Gorbachev dismissed reports about policy rifts between him and Yegor K. Ligachev, a conservative member of the ruling Politburo and the party’s chief ideologist, saying that the Kremlin leadership fully supports his program of perestroika and that debate within the ruling bodies is “natural.” In the past, he added, “our problem has been that for many years there was no such debate in society, in the party, not in the Central Committee, not in the government itself or in the Politburo. The absence of debate led to many losses, mistakes and omissions.”

Although Gorbachev is seeking to display unity in the Soviet leadership on the eve of the conference, differences between him and Ligachev on re-examining Soviet history, certain aspects of glasnost, or openness, and other issues have emerged clearly in public remarks made previously by both men.

Gorbachev explained that reform of the Soviet system of setting wholesale and retail prices, considered by specialists as crucial to the ultimate success of his economic reforms, will not be introduced for another three years. This appeared to signal that the Soviet leaders are still weighing ways to raise prices without sparking public unrest.

The massive amounts the Soviet state spends for subsidies on meat and other staple goods will be altered in the 1991-95 five-year plan, Gorbachev said. The subsidies shelter the Soviet people from inflation and high prices but drain the state budget and prevent investment in other areas.

The Soviet leader said that the price reforms will also be designed so that the standard of living will not decline, suggesting that some form of state-controlled subsidies will likely continue. “We must carefully devise a system of compensation” for increased prices, Gorbachev said. “We have those carefully conceived and balanced proposals, we will put them before the people for discussion.”

While appearing determined to tackle the price-reform problem, Gorbachev gave no indication of how the details of a new Soviet price policy will be worked out or how he will reconcile raising prices without lower living standards.

Gorbachev also used his first interview with an American newspaper to distinguish Western freedom of speech from glasnost .

“These are not identical things,” Gorbachev said in the answers to questions submitted earlier by the Post. “While freedom of speech is indispensable for glasnost, we see glasnost as a broader phenomenon. For us it is not just the right of every citizen to openly say what he or she thinks about all the social and political questions, but also the duty of the ruling party . . . to ensure openness in decision making, act on criticism, consider advice and recommendations from the shop floor, public organizations and individuals.”

Glasnost, by far the most widely celebrated abroad of Gorbachev’s reforms, is also the most strongly disputed at home.

Gorbachev discussed publicly the differences between his reform drive and Khrushchev’s, which was launched in the late 1950s and ended abruptly in 1964 with his removal from office.

The question of why he could succeed where Khrushchev failed, Gorbachev said, is “the principal question whose answer our people want to know and I think Americans do, too.”

“Those reforms did not bear fruit,” he said, “and I think the main reason for that is that . . . the process of those reforms did not rely on the main, decisive force--and that is the involvement of the people in modernizing and restructuring our country.”

“We want to insure ourselves against major mistakes,” Gorbachev continued. “Therefore, we want our decisions, at least our principal decisions, to be prepared with the involvement of the whole society.”

Referring to reform attempts by both Khrushchev and former Soviet leader Leonid I. Brezhnev, Gorbachev said, “I think we’ve learned from the past.”